IMV47: Web 2.0

The following is a transcript for IMV47: Web 2.0. The original podcast is located here.

Announcer:

Welcome to the Internet Marketing Voodoo podcast, brought to you by MindComet. And now, here’s your host, Paul Lewis.

Paul Lewis:

Welcome to Internet Marketing Voodoo. I’m your host, Paul Lewis, and today’s topic is Web 2.0. Everyone’s talking about it, but what is it really? Well, today, our guest speaker is Craig Calder and he’s an expert with 20 years’ experience spent in marketing development for interactive companies. Craig, give us a little bit of information about your background.

Craig Calder:

I started out in New York at Time Warner working for Sports Illustrated in the marketing group and while I was there, I got also involved in kind of the early days of the desktop publishing revolution and then went out and started my own company that dealt primarily with serving mostly magazines and media companies with everything from marketing materials and tradeshows and all that kind of thing and while I was doing that, I met the folks at Ziff Davis and did some consulting with them and got hooked on the early days of the Internet and there I met the four guys in a garage who started Modem Media, really the first interactive agency on the East Coast.

And so I started working with them in the early days and then had the opportunity to go to the client side and I went to Nickelodeon and helped start the Nickelodeon online group and from there, I went to The New York Times and helped start The New York Times digital, and after that, I went to DoubleClick and worked for the rich media group there and had a quick stop at TheStreet.com and now I’m at Mochila which is smack dab in the Web 2.0 world.

Paul Lewis:

Tell me a little bit about this Web 2.0 technology and how it’s shifting the landscape for marketers both on and offline.

Craig Calder:

I think what you’re seeing is that it’s really about the audience taking control and doing a lot of things that really would make traditional media people not so long ago lose sleep, meaning giving people access to not only give their own editorial opinions on certain things mixed with content from big media companies but also controlling it on their own terms, meaning portable devices or being able to share directly and self publish.

One of the things that I’ve really seen an analogy with is being involved in the early desktop publishing days. It was a mini revolution when people could self publish. The problem was that people were very excited about doing that, but the problem was there really wasn’t a means of distribution. We had all these zines out there but they still had to – after you laid it out on the Mac, you still had to run and Xerox it and put a stamp on it and mail it or hand it out and I think that’s why it kind of never really went to the next level and I think what we’re seeing right now is that whole new generation of young people who have grown up as part of the AOL generation and beyond are very comfortable with this media and they would think nothing about taking various different forms and mashing them up into various final products and I think what you’re seeing, too, is some businesses are being built based on this freedom and creativity and I’m sure that we haven’t even seen some of the things that are really coming that are gonna change the way media is used.

Paul Lewis:

Yeah, I think the pace of change is only increasing the technologies, the APIs, the ways to build off of one product and mix it with another, as you talked about mash-ups and other things, is just getting easier and more intuitive and, as you said, this digital generation, that’s as natural to them as breathing. Oh, I’m gonna move and combine this and this and I’ll have something brand new and so the rate of proliferation is just exponentially increasing.

Craig Calder:

It’s moving forward with or without the buy-in from the traditional media companies but I got to tell you, they are shaking in their boots, because it is really in their DNA that their content is special and they need to control it just like a brand, because it essentially represents their brand and they want control over their brand in any particular way. And to really be successful in this new landscape, you kinda have to let go and you have to trust that people will use your content in a responsible way and that’s really, really difficult.

And I think that’s what you’re seeing right now with all the YouTube controversy, with people like Viacom pulling all their content off because I mean obviously there’s a big financial piece of it. Viacom wants to be paid, but I think that there’s another piece that more forward-thinking media executives may say, “Maybe it’s better for us to just let our content out there, or certain select content out there, to spread our brand and insert ourselves into this new conversation that’s going on out there.”

Paul Lewis:

Yeah. I think that’s spot on. I think that companies have to think not only about their brand, but just like you have a brand steward, you have relationships now, and how do you engage in that dialogue and become part of it and how do you become a steward of what those relationships represent and collectively what is that brand and relationship becoming.

Craig Calder:

It’s also, really, how would your brand fit into this new way of connecting with people. Whereas before where the advertisers were kind of more in control – they could dictate to the broadcast, the print or the radio folks how their message would be sent out – here, it’s really kind of up to the masses how it happens. That means a very different way of thinking.

Paul Lewis:

Let’s talk a little bit about how do media buyers and marketer and advertisers need to change the way that they spend their advertising dollars to really leverage the Web 2.0 changes that are occurring.

Craig Calder:

Unfortunately, it really hasn’t become mainstream yet for a lot of folks and what it’s really come down to is that paid search has been so dominant in terms of driving results – everything else pales in comparison. But I see these Web 2.0 opportunities as a way for enlightened marketers to kind of reach out to the edge of the online universe and to go out there and pull in those folks that they may not be able to get through the more traditional ways and it’s a tired analogy but it’s the whole long tail piece. If you can reach enough of those people on the fringes in aggregation, oftentimes it’s a larger audience than a bigger core segment.

Paul Lewis:

Clearly, Google, yes, it’s very measurable but you’re reaching that audience who’s kind of already made up their mind they’re searching for a particular topic so you’re not persuading or changing or creating the brand awareness that also needs to happen, so you have to, I think, balance that a little bit. What are some of the advantages of using Web 2.0 engagements that marketers could be taking advantage of?

Craig Calder:

Well, I think you have a much deeper relationship. You can be engaged with somebody while they’re participating in a Web 2.0 activity to where it doesn’t feel forced – I mean if it’s done right – and I think the key thing is relevancy. If you have a relevant message to somebody who’s engaged in Web 2.0 experience, I think that you have a much better way of reaching those audience, ’cause I think it’s been pretty much documented that this whole generation tunes out traditional advertising on television and radio and print and I would say probably Internet banners also and maybe to some degree search. So these are the people who are watching TiVo, listening to podcasts, playing video games and IM ing their friends at the same time. If you can insert yourself into their daily routine, that’s one of the few ways to reach this group.

Paul Lewis:

Obviously the people who have become immersed in those types of technologies are leaders in that area and so often they’ll be leaders to try out other new technologies or other new products or services.

Craig Calder:

Yeah, they’re definitely influencers. I have two daughters, 13 and 8, and I can already see them with the IM-ing and using their phones as basically communication devices and the way that they talk with each other and talk about these products and what’s better than this and they know a lot more than I do in certain degrees and there’s definitely an opportunity. If you’re successful at reaching influencers in that group, it’s a real powerful way to give your brand a kick start.

Paul Lewis:

How does the online publisher maybe need to change their paradigm a little bit here to stay up with the times and the technology?

Craig Calder:

Well, hey, a lot of it is just faith. You have to take a risk ’cause we’re at a real kind of a paradigm shift in the way things are going because this younger generation is now becoming more and more of the mainstream and more vital and also part of the older generation that has embraced these technologies. And publishers have been able to ignore it for a while as kind of just fads but I think where it’s coming from is the advertisers are asking for it, which is really kinda pushing the publishers to do that. I mean, publishers would just as soon play it safe and have just banners and sponsorships and for them doing video pre-roll is a big shift.

Paul Lewis:

Right. That’s an advancement.

Craig Calder:

Yeah. I mean their whole idea – what can I do that’s the least disruptive to my current business and still make my numbers and really what they should be saying is, “How can I disrupt my business before someone else does?” Try certain things ’cause I know that when I was in a couple roles and suggested doing something on Second Life, I was looked at like I was some crazy person.

Paul Lewis:

Right, on the fringes of society.

Craig Calder:

Well and it was actually at TheStreet, too, which is – and it wasn’t let’s just – hey, let’s go build a castle in Second Life. It was, no, we have an opportunity to go in and possibly do financial reporting on the economy in Second Life and they kinda bought into it and while it’s really not their fault but they kinda said, “Well, is that really the biggest priority?” A few weeks later, Reuters went in, put a stake in the ground and basically took that role, so I think that you have to take some chances and if you wait too long, somebody else is gonna take that opportunity but the real problem is how do you prove ROI. Right? Because the CMO or the marketing person that comes up with that idea and actually sells it through, those senior folks are gonna want to see results fairly quickly because they’re under big pressure and they say, “Is this the best use of my media dollars and my resources?” And if you can’t show ROI, it’s very, very tough.

Paul Lewis:

In some ways, I think that the measurability of Google advertising comes at the demerits to the innovative brand and marketing approaches. They’re all so necessary. You have to have the right balance of things but the problem is is that many of those other investments are much harder to track and to gauge and to have that immediate “Well, we had this many buys yesterday for this keyword.”

Craig Calder:

Right.

Paul Lewis:

And I think the pendulum has swung. It used to be marketing was a very touchy feely, intent to buy, survey focused discipline and we’ve swung the pendulum all the way to the opposite side where it’s how much did those keywords cost, how many converted, how many sales, what’s my cost of sales, and it was an exact number. Here’s what you can invest each day. And I think we’ve got to bring that pendulum somewhere back in the middle. Not all the way where it was, but it can’t be at the other extreme either.

Craig Calder:

And especially if you’re working with a public company, right? That’s what those analysts want to see. How much did you spend? How much did you get back? You can’t go in and talk to an analyst about brand good will that we’ve developed with a particular audience.

Paul Lewis:

Right.

Craig Calder:

One positive thing that I’ve definitely seen develop over the past few years is that the bloggers and blogging pages are starting to become seen as more valuable. Early on, it was – I think bloggers were kind of looked upon as like chat rooms. Like early on when sites had chat rooms, the advertisers didn’t want to advertise there, right? Because when somebody’s in a chat room, they’re focused on the chat room and they’re not looking at the ads, so they wouldn’t get real results in terms of click-throughs and that kinda thing, so then it became chat rooms aren’t a great place to advertise and nobody wanted to be there. It was like a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Paul Lewis:

Right.

Craig Calder:

And then when blogs came along, I think that same kind of mentality went along with it. Well, blogs – people were going to blogs and, again, this was kind of early on. It’s like they just want to go there for a particular niche topic and they’re not really interested in ads. And what’s happened is that not only has blogging obviously exploded – oh, and another thing was that these media brands didn’t want to associate their content with a blog that somebody who’s just an average person has written. I think that’s really changed, too, that people realize that maybe these are not professional journalists but it’s relevant.

If it’s relevant to the audience, it’s relevant and I think now you see media companies are much more open to bringing in blog content alongside of their self created content because, No. 1, it gives them additional inventory and impressions and unique visitors. The key thing is unique visitors in terms of driving up your Nielsen ratings and to be able to get on those big buys and so I think it’s kinda come full circle where big media brands now see partnering with bloggers or getting involved in a blog network is an advantage where before it used to be a liability.

Paul Lewis:

Yeah, I agree. Well, Craig, we’ve reached the part of the show where it’s time to play truth or marketing. Are you ready?

Craig Calder:

Sure.

Paul Lewis:

All right. So you mentioned a little bit about YouTube and Viacom earlier. Do you think they’re going to learn to play nice with each other?

Craig Calder:

Truth. I think they will.

Paul Lewis:

All right. How about the iPhone? Sales surpass 10 million units according to Apple in 2008.

Craig Calder:

I’m a big Apple fan. I’ll have to say truth.

Paul Lewis:

Truth? Okay. Going with Steve on that one. Good. Okay, last one. MySpace growth reverses with audience shifting to more specialized niche communities that offer sophisticated Web 2.0 technologies. Do you think MySpace is gonna keep growing or is it going to level off or even go into decline?

Craig Calder:

I think that it’s marketing and I definitely think it’s going to decline. You can already see it with Facebook. I think Facebook has become kind of irrelevant. It’s very interesting because I don’t know about you but I’m on LinkedIn and I think that’s a very relevant piece of being in business and connecting with people and now I get – I have a Facebook page just because I wanted to have one.

Paul Lewis:

Because you could.

Craig Calder:

And every time I get an invite from somebody, I’m surprised if it’s actually somebody I know and so it’s just like, “Ah, I got to –.” And I apologize to the Facebook people out there but I think there’s a real difference and I kinda see MySpace going that way.

Paul Lewis:

I think you’ve got some excellent points. Craig, I also want to mention that if people wanted to learn a little bit more about Mochila, which is M-O-C-H-I-L-A dot com, could you give us a short synopsis of that?

Craig Calder:

Sure and Mochila with one L because with two it’s mochilla and people, the first thing they always ask is, “What is a mochila?” It’s the word for like bag or backpack in Spanish and it was the bag that the Pony Express people used to carry and the company Mochila is a content marketplace, so hence the analogy of the Pony Express carrying content out across the country. And what it is, it’s an opportunity for buyers and sellers of content to come together in a marketplace.

Paul Lewis:

Sounds fascinating. Well, I recommend that you check it out again at Mochila.com. Craig, thanks so much for being on the show today.

Craig Calder:

Thank you, Paul.

Paul Lewis:

And for everyone else, until next time, keep it real.

Announcer:

For more information on this week’s topic, visit internetmarketingvoodoo.com. This podcast has been brought to you by MindComet, the Relationship Agency.

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